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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri the
world has rightly recoiled in horror at
the extreme pornography of violence in
Iraq the videoed beheadings of now two
American journalists by the
self-appointed caliphate of Isis has
attracted World attention to their
savagery in a way which the mutilation
and Massacre by them of thousands of of
others in Syria and Iraq has not
meanwhile the font of fanatic extremism
in Saudi Arabia Remains the West best
friend and lucrative customer the
prevailing ideology of Saudi Arabia
shares points of contact with that of
the neighboring caliphate and one of
those is the public televised severing
of people's heads the Saudi dictatorship
has recently embarked on a frenetic
spree of public beheadings dozens of
them in just the last few months Amnesty
International has been working hard to
attract media and public attention to
these beheadings with so far limited
results that's why we're delighted to
welcome on board the Sputnik CAG ketan
and I'm glad that you're here to explain
what I had no knowledge of at all this
huge increase in the number of
beheadings give us the skill of this
first please seac thank you for having
me George basically we've noticed we've
seen that in the last month alone
between two September two two August and
two September there's been more than 30
executions almost all of them public
beheadings so that's almost daily daily
at least one a day and the vast although
the vast majority of these have been on
murder charges these death sentences but
many of them are drug smuggling and one
of them is actually for sorcery or
witchcraft which is not even a crime in
international
law so this is extremely alarming and it
points or it raises a number of
questions for us for one thing it
clearly states that Saudi authorities do
not have do not have regard to human
life many of these cases that we have
been able to document it's clear that
death sentences were handed down after
unfair trials and that is not acceptable
in some cases the only evidence seems
seem to be coming from confessions which
were extracted under torture and
deception is the regime vulnerable at
the moment I mean what what would
explain uh what had been a fairly
routine pattern of beheadings and this
spree that I describe I think that's
basically the question that is being
raised now what explains the sech in
executions and I think it's given that
this is Saudi Arabia we're talking about
it's impossible to tell the decision
making behind these closed doors what I
imagine is happening or what I think
explains the surge the increase in the
numbers is a number of factors one is
that if you look at 2000 the annual rate
of execution in Saudi Arabia in 2013 and
2012 they're almost identical around 79
people were executed in 2013 and 2012
each year now if you look at last year
2013 in the first half of the year the
numbers were extremely high so it was
not going to to stay below 100 and then
the last 6 months of the year the
numbers sharply dropped there were one
or two executions in the second half of
the Year very few this year it's the
opposite it started very low and then
Ramadan came and during Ramadan there
are no executions do not take place and
then so we had 17 by July of this year
so 2014 from January to July 17
executions I think the authorities at
one of the explanations is that the
authorities have a certain amount of
people and statistics they want to keep
and they want to keep that at the
national level so in other words there
is that let's say cut off point so very
low at the beginning of this year we can
increase the execution rate to reach
that number 80 let's say now other
reason I think there is a political
Dimension to this as well I think the
authorities are concerned of what's
happening in the surrounding areas in
the region in general especially in the
after at of 2011 and I think they want
to send a strong message to everyone
saying that we're still in charge we're
still strong and we will punish any
transgression I'm a politician I'm
across the news all the time I
specialize in the Middle East and I knew
none of this until I read your Amnesty
International report that means this
hasn't impacted in the international
mass media at all or even the niche
media that I read how do you account for
that I think that has been a long
struggle for us
basically there are some news coming out
of Saudi Arabia that is covered and the
most that is covered believe it or not
the the news that gets best coverage is
beheadings so this is actually the
maximum media coverage that you would
get so there's a lot of things that are
happening in the country that are
there's no news whatsoever on so I think
the this is common and it's been
happening for years if not decades now
that given the the situation of Saudi
Arabia it's International status both as
a regional Ally and as an economic power
so the geostrategic and the economic
relations between the Western countries
and Saudi Arabia there's less and less
interest in basically commentary from
the authorities of Western governments
and therefore not much encouragement
when these things come out in media to
make a noise out of or to discuss
publicly what we hear from these
authorities is that they're raising
these issues privately with the soes so
they call them to discuss to raise
concerns over the phone now the issue
with that is that we don't know if that
really happens or not and there are no
there's no change coming out of out of
those discussions apparently so we been
encouraging them to raise concerns
publicly that's the way that you can
influence the so authorities to respond
to this International outcry so while I
cannot explain why the media in this
case have not covered let's say as uh as
wide as the coverage has been on Isis
and other executions I cannot explain
why not on Saudi Arabia as much on the
Saudi beheadings but I think the general
explanation the the historic situation
is behind this the terms of the alliance
the causes and also the idea that
eventually in Saudi Arabia there is
supposed to be a court a trial of some
sort uh leading to the to the execution
regardless if whether or not we found we
find that grotesque beheadings public
executions that there is a process
behind it of trial of conviction Etc
which is not actually
true tell us tell us about those um that
get executed are these Saudis or are
they mostly
migrants so that's another interesting
Factor actually that the more than 50%
more than half of those executed
annually are foreigners are foreign
migrants and typically migrant workers
and there are multiple reasons I think
for that one of which is that they are
not very well informed of Sai laws which
aren't most of most of which aren't
codified so you don't know what the law
is second because they they do not have
access to translation facilities or to
lawyers so they might be framed in a in
a crime let's say in a domestic crime of
some sort end up in jail be sentenced to
death without knowing what's going on
and then executed so which is extremely
concerning and most of these um
including um last year in 2013 there was
a a um a foreign domestic worker
17-year-old girl who was executed a girl
17 1-year-old girl named risana nafik
who um a Sri Lankan girl and it was
clear that she was 17 all the
authorities claimed that in her passport
it said it she was 18 now the
authorities later the S Lankan
authorities clarified it saying that her
passport was forged so that she can get
a job to say 18 but that they
ascertained they said we confirmed that
she's not that didn't matter matter
matter all so they violate the UN
Convention of the rights of the child
child absolutely
yes I'm I'm stunned by that uh I'm
momentarily speechless they severed the
head of a 17-year-old girl
yes the uh Saudis as you and us both
know uh are big customers of ours
they're big geostrategic allies even
though as gatri said they are the font
of this extremism not necessarily the
government but uh all of these extremist
groups draw great financial and other
support from inside uh Saudi Arabia the
world is
transfixed at the moment uh with these
hidious grotesque executions of Western
journalists which make Front Page News
top of the news everywhere in the world
so it's like there's a tariff Isis can
execute syrians and Iraqis in their
hundreds maybe thousands nobody cares uh
Saudi Arabia can behead dozens One A Day
nobody much cares this must be painful
for you Amnesty International struggling
to highlight all of these crimes all of
them are crimes and you're struggling to
highlight them all absolutely and to
keep basically the attention on what we
think is really important here which is
that we believe as Amnesty International
that all executions or all death
sentences are clear violation to the
right of Life they are dor the
cruestv regardless of how they're done
is it beheading or chemicals or shooting
whatever it is and the human life is
human life basically we are against all
forms of executions now what's been
happening in the region with the Isis
and not even last year before Isis
gained the current prominence is that
the Middle East is the was the area
where we see we saw the surge in
executions the executions continued more
or less the way it has been last years
whereas the rest of the world we so a
decrease now the the point here is that
the these these regimes that have been
carrying out the execution in the Middle
East and have increased have not
received any criticism while all the
attention has gone to these armed groups
like Isis so whereas Isis and others all
humans have obligations in international
humanitarian law Saudi Arabia as a state
as an international recognized state for
example has further obligations because
it's member it's part of number of of
treaties that it has signed including
conventional rights of the child so they
have the demand on them should be far
higher because of these um or the
expectations should be far higher
because of these International treaties
that they voluntarily signed I actually
I'm very curious about amnesty's work
but also the support that you get
locally do you get any support locally
from the people cuz it's funny when you
speak about public beheadings I always
wonder who this public are are the
public still enjoying it and
that's a really difficult uh question to
answer I think in a sense um we have to
admit that in number of countries in the
world especially including places like
Saudi Arabia um it's been part of the a
very long history um the executions
including the public
beheadings so there is and generally
speaking it's accepted that the death
penalty is um a legitimate punishment
for some crimes I mean it is supposed to
be a spectacle it is supposed to work as
a deterrent supposedly for others
although there's no absolutely no
evidence whatsoever on your fig on your
figures it's uh vating exactly seac
we've got to leave it there thanks very
much for joining us we'll we'll we'd
like to talk to you again about it
coming up after the break a bright young
man with a great future ahead of him on
a grand old man with a great past behind
him not me Bob Dylan don't miss
it welcome back to Sputnik I consider
Bob Dylan to be the greatest writer
since William Shakespeare he writed a
few wrongs he wrote some of the best
songs and I even like his voice or
should I say voices for he has had
several I've paid a fortune to go and
see Bob Dylan over decades Our Guest
today has seen him more often than I and
he's only 21 years old he's here to
discuss the the original Vagabond and
Ian Bell's biography of the star which
has just been released in paperback he's
dylanologists uh work time out of mind
the lives of Bob Dylan voices of Bob
Dylan lives of Bob Dylan what did you as
an expert uh in the field make of this
one well I think instantaneously as
you've noted when you read that title
the lives of Bob Dylan it goes to the
heart of the fact that there really is
no continuity that can be pointed to in
in the life of Bob Dylan from just
opening the book you see a quote by
Ginsburg he says I don't think Bob Dylan
has a self and that really strikes at
the heart of what Bob Dylan is about
over a career of 50 plus years he's
reinvented himself so many times that
there's no longer the Bob Dylan of the
1960s he doesn't exist anymore Dylan
himself has said that in interviews he
said I don't know that person anymore
he's not he's not me so Dylan doesn't
recognize himself and I think
immediately Ian Bell has caught on to
that with with this book what's
especially nice about Ian Bell's book is
that as a political journalist of course
he won the allwell prize he imp Parts
knowledge of the political scene the
political context in which Dylan
operated in and continues to operate in
this is a person who's been massively
influential in popular culture and
American history world history and you
have his story in in Belle's book uh
encapsulated I think better than uh any
other that I've read now let's talk
about some of the lives uh Dylan burst
on the scene the New York uh Cafe scene
Greenwich Village in the coldest winter
for uh many years uh he played in these
coffee shops just to get out of the cold
wind uh and the Zeitgeist just a year or
so later uh reached its Crescendo the
Civil Rights Movement Martin Luther
King's arrest uh the murder uh of uh
Medgar Evans and so on uh then the
Vietnam War begins and he becomes in a
way a spokesman for uh the opposition to
nuclear weapons the Cold War the Vietnam
War racism in
America and then politically speaking he
Fades artistically he flourishes but
politically speaking he FES how does Ian
Bell explain that well with Bob Dylan's
polit uh politics and political messages
it's sometimes difficult to know just
exactly what Dylan thinks and I think
it's perhaps a mistake to say that he
ceased to become uh political ceased to
be political perhaps he ceased to be
overtly political I might put it that
way but starting at the beginning like
you mentioned with the the 1960s Civil
Rights Movement not a lot of people know
but when uh Luther King made his I Have
a Dream speech U 51 years ago Dylan was
there and he sung at the March on
Washington oh did he so he was he was
there at that time sort of through his
music galvanizing public opinion he
never wrote a song specifically about uh
civil rights but the emotions and the
senses of justice that were in his words
which had never been seen really in rock
songs before with that marriage of folk
Blues Country and and rock which Bob
Dylan introduced you started to find
that and so whilst in the 60s you have
overtly political
actions later on that that does cease
overtly political actions but the music
doesn't really change I would say the
same sense of right and wrong of uh
Freedom Liberty remains in his music and
so if you're looking for lyrics that you
can say immediately this is about this
particular political subject you can't
find that but even to this day you can
still find that that sense um that
political message um not to put too far
find a point on on message because
Dylan's songs aren't really uh
teleological in that sense he doesn't
have an end in mind he doesn't want to
change a particular thing through one
song but through the songs things do
change um just one in fact uh hurricane
which is one of his very best songs was
a song about Ruben Carter who could have
been the champion of the world but ended
up like Buddha in a 10-ft cell
uh Dylan helped spring him from prison
didn't he well that's that's right and
this is uh from a 1976 album called
desire and Dylan met Carter and
immediately concluded that he wasn't
guilty of this crime he spoke to him for
hours in prison and wrote this uh song
More overtly than any other song he's
written this is the song which he wanted
to achieve something he would say in his
concerts we need to free this innocent
man and so it was that with the song
people began to know about what wouldn't
have been such a big story uh it had a
mass uh public appeal people began to
understand who Ruben Carter was and
so I think the important part about
hurricane is the involvement with the
public Consciousness Ian Bell is very
realistic in the way he describes this
he doesn't want to say that Bob Dylan
freed Ruben Carter I don't think that's
the the case at all as it happens the
reason why he uh was no longer in prison
was because the prosecutors decided not
to have a third trial his innocence or
guilt was never finally concluded
however I think B makes a very good
point when he says that Dylan recognized
that even though Carter might not have
been the best of black men doesn't make
him a guilty black man and I think Dylan
recognized that and it's a theme that
runs uh through the songs that he's done
s many people argue that the songs he's
written should have been sung by others
including myself I wouldn't say I am
forced to listen to Bob D during our
long road trips but you
are how uh how would you how would you
say that so you what you're saying is
great songs not a great voice well I
mean I'm bound to disagree with you but
I can understand where you're coming
from with that there's something
immediately that people find find
unpalatable about the voice whether it's
the 1960s sort of high pitched uh
whining that you might describe it as
yes describe it and then later growling
the later growling the grably the grably
voice so if you want something with uh
more public appeal then Adele's cover of
Make You Feel My Love is an excellent
example and that's the biggest selling
Bob Dylan song in in history that's
right I would make the point that Dylan
has never actually had a number one
single oh he's had a number of number
one albums but never a number one single
so popular appeal in terms of chart
success has never been his strong point
I think his golden age was around the
time of the album desire and blood on
the tracks which for me is the best
album ever made by anybody and One Track
in fact every track could be a movie uh
but the uh the Tangled Up In Blue
uh is to me the most cinematic song uh
ever recorded and I also think his voice
was at its very best then around about
the Budokan uh Tour live at the Budokan
in Japan what do you think of that I
think I think that's right there are
lots of people who think that blood on
the tracks is Dylan's best work sort of
the Pinnacle of his uh achievements as a
songwriter and as a as a singer I think
there's a lot to be said for that view
particularly Tangled Up In Blue as you
mentioned Dylan has said himself of that
song that it has past present and future
all sitting in the same room together
and in that way it certainly is
Cinematic um it's also been described as
the best breakup album ever written
because around this time Bob was uh
divorcing from from his wife so you see
a different side of Bob doing there more
uh personal side than you will have uh I
always uh saw myself as the Jack of
Hearts in that uh album uh although I
must tell you this the best Dylan song
I've ever heard him perform he didn't
write from uh from uh Natural Born
Killers from the soundtrack of Natural
Born Killers he sings a 1950 song what's
it called again you belong to me mhm
it's only 2 and a half minutes long it's
absolutely magic yes I think uh there's
something uh interesting about Bob
Dylan's association with uh film
sometimes you have uh very good work
that he's done specifically for films
what comes to mind is uh the 2001 film
Wonder Boys in which he wrote the song
things have changed which in fact won
him an Academy Award which he proudly
has on his piano uh in the concerts he
he does now and so there is something
cinematic about his songs you can't put
a lot of songs in uh films and expect
them to tell a story but that's exactly
what Bob Dylan's songs do they they tell
a story and they speak to
people I would say on an elevated level
than than other music well as uh as Bob
D put it thank
you thank
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you and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rattling gri so
there's been a sech of beheadings in
Saudi Arabia but an absence of
condemnation from the West why n akar
answers because if Saudi Arabia was an
exporter of bananas it would be
condemned but because it keeps Joe on
the road it's not mind you though Jack
Tipple reminds us that UK is no stranger
to beheadings as Malaysian insurgents
discovered yeah in the 1950s the British
army was paying 25 Shillings ahead yep
literally ahead to uh the heads of
Communists were worth 25 Shillings each
it brings the question though whether
UK's ties with Saudi Arabia makes the UK
complicit to crimes to humanity Imran
raut answers that I think it could even
be do Saudi close ties with the UK make
them complicit in crimes against
humanity very good very good point and
finally on Bob Dylan Luke answers voice
voice I love all Bob Dylan's different
voices well me too the lives of Bob
Dylan the voices of Bob Dylan all of
them are truly great to me well that's
all that we've got for this week which
alas means it's the end of the show do
please keep in touch with us on Twitter
at rtor Sputnik and on Facebook you can
like us on Sputnik on Russia today it's
goodbye from me gatri and from me George
Galloway it's been
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marvelous
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